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What I Read in the Waiting Room of Hell


From the Tongues of Angels

Search And Destroy

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Member since 02/2005


December 03, 2005


Shakespeare's Sister

Thank you for posting on this.


You know what the sad thing is? This doesn't surprise me at all. In a society where women's bodies are not our own, this is the obvious result and you know what? This will only get worse as we have less and less control. I don't mean to sound melodramatic but chipping away at women's rights means that this sort of thing seems less outrageous (to some, like the people in that hideous town).

Not to state the obvious but because of the stigma of rape and because women face such an uphill battle in court, there is very little incentive to report rape- and cases like this will just deter women from going to the authorities in the future- not like there is a big incentive now. Also, the psychological and physical aspects of rape make proving rape at trial difficult and as the person "ellis" said above, "there is no typical response for a rape survivor" but some initial, instinctive responses are showering and washing clothes and as a lawyer and someone who also works in mental health it always amazes me when some pinhead goes "well why did she do that?" Gee, I wonder.

Basically, the moral of the story posted above by Heretik is, "she asked for it AND we'll teach her a lesson."

Craig McDonough

This is f***g insane.

And the city has the nerve to say this will not deter
reporting of cases?

And this is not the first time it's happened in that town?

This needs to be made as public as possible, to bring the full light of public shame to this city.


This is sickening, I completely agree with the first commentor, this is what happens when we let the American taliban slowly erode women's rights. First we take over control of their reproductive organs, and force them to bear children weather they like it or not, then it's just a hop, skip and a jump to legalized rape and forced marraiges.

Fucking inexcusable.


Your characterization of me is, I feel, unfair. I said throughout the post that the DA was wrong to prosecute the girl and that the effects of the prosecution would be harmful to more people than just her. The only portion where the "devil" needs an advocate here is on the assumption, which is clearly being made by everyone else, that the boys are guilty. Perhaps. Perhaps not. We don't know, was the point I was making. What we do know is that there was apparently not a good enough case to take to trial, which means that, in America, we have to at least allow the *possibility* that they are innocent and the sex was consensual. And if it was? Then there was another sort of crime committed, and as I pointed out, it can be a very serious one also. There isn't enough information to get out the lynch mob ropes yet, was my point.

The Heretik

RE: JAZZ SHAW SAYS he is playing the devil's advocate for the prosecution here. Whether he is the devil is for others to decide on this one.

When The Heretik said this (in a line now edited), no ad hominem attack was intended. While The Heretik's poetic side sometimes gets the best of him and so might have seemed ad hominem in attack, what more concerns me is the ad womenem attacks that all too regularly occur in rapes and other violence to the spirit of women. The more high and mighty may decide whether it is hyperbole to say this prosecution simply is an insult to civilization. In this world where the devil does his work, few advocates are needed.

This is a case about emphasis, the accent sharp or grave. Sometimes silence alone may speak, while other times more judicious choice is needed.

Kate S.

Over 30 years ago throughout circumstances that stretched over a five-year period of time I was raped four times. Each time was because I was hitchhiking to a job. I had no car. I was too poor to call a cab. Bus service didn't run as late or as far as I needed for my jobs. When I tried to call once, after being held on the frozen ground at knifepoint (I still had mud, leaves, and a trickle of blood running down my neck,) I was told not to bother: since I was hitchhiking -- I was "just asking for it."

The pervading attitude then, like with this judge, is that by the very nature of our mystique, the quality of the prize, women and girls are probably all just asking for it.

Have we really come a long way since then? It would appear not. I feel such a deep sadness for all the women of the world who go through this act of soul-killing violence, perpetrated every single second of the day.

Missouri Mule

"Because rape has historically been so well investigated and prosecutors have cared so much." You nailed it, Hellhound.
As a matter of fact, I'm of the mind that male judges have no place in trying rape cases. But that's just me and I don't have a lot of respect for most men. I'll take it a step further, I believe more than half the troubles on this planet are a result of some dick head with a hard on.

Night Bird

I believe more than half the troubles on this planet are a result of some dick head with a hard on.

Missouri Mule...I respect your step further!

The Heretik

So how can this situation change? The survivor is appealing the case to the next court in Oregon. But what about this wacked culture?


I know this sounds overly simplistic but here in Massachusetts, judges actually get training on dealing with sexual assuault cases so they dont make assumptions going into cases. Same thing with domestic violence cases. To the credit of our judges, they get a lot of outside the courtroom education geared towards making them better judges inside the courtroom- its almost a sensitivity training of sorts, but not quite. Of course, conservatives would mock it outright and there would be resistance to it in other states.


As for changing society with respect to rape- that's a whole other matter.

Rape, and how prevalent it is- goes to the very heart of gender roles and how women are viewed in society and there is a LOT of resistance to change, particularly among those who lead this country.

Men see women as property to be taken and women are not free to refuse mens advances. If they do, they can be "taken." And ironically, as time goes on we are making less progress, not more with respect to having more control of our bodies. The decision to allow the govt to decide whether or not we can terminate a pregnancy and the minimizing of a woman being raped by a stranger or her husband- its all very violent and paternalistic. And of course its about control. Its always about control.

the Heretik

Agreed education is a start. Wisdom is another thing, short in supply, as much a force of the heart as the head.

J Pierpont Flathead

When all the so called perjurers in the world in other crimes whose lies are left unchallenged and unprosecuted at the end of so many trials get prosecuted, come back to me. Sex crimes are different.

My kids were taken away from me completely for three months because of a false allegation of abandonment in an affidavit filed by my ex-wife. Though I had cell-phone bills and airplane tickets to show that I was where I was supposed to be, because the system didn't have to ask me before issuing an emergency order, that evidence was never looked at. In this case, it wasn't sex crimes are different, it was "the need to protect the children" make this crime different. You can read more about this here.

I have spent more than three years and 25 thousand dollars to reclaim the parenting time I had with them before the perjury occurred. I have won most of the court cases, and had 3 of 4 court psychs agree with me, but it takes time and money for this stuff to get through the court system. In the meantime, I don't have the 25K, and I don't get to be with my kids as they grow older.

I think perjury is a very serious crime that should be punished to the full extent of the law.

Craig McDonough

...THE HERETIK REMAINS disgusted...

The Heretik is not alone.


My post is here:

"And imagine, we recoil in horror at the worldwide atrocity of rape as weapon and instrument of control during wars, but we don't have to look beyond our own borders (or legal system) to see this is a crime that continues to barbarize and intimidate victims who choose to speak out because of ignorance, misogyny or both."

Billy Boat

It's in the news nearly every week -- "Man exonerated by DNA after 15 years in prison". Everyone involved agrees that there are more innocent men waiting for vindication. No one ever mentions the "victims" who falsely put them behing bars.

During the Kobe Bryant scandal, prosecutors from across the nation came forward to say that somewhere around 1/3 of all rape reports are false. But where is the accountability for this?


Here's the link to Silber's post. It's quite thought-provoking.

media girl

Already, rape is the one violent crime where the victim's testimony is rarely enough to bring about a conviction. Now we have victims risking charges if they don't put on a good show for the D.A.? Ugh!


I can't fucking believe this. But then again, in this kind of society with the way it treats women--especially women who have been raped, I can believe it.


No one ever mentions the "victims" who falsely put them behing bars.

Usually because the "victim" is a victim who, based on sight-ID-ing her attacker, made a mistake, and was actually raped, just by someone of similar appearance. Yes, this is horrible for the falsely accused. However, the modern use of DNA evidence makes these false IDs very much obsolete in current cases. Also, your comment says nothing about cases in which the accused admit to the intercourse and consent is the only issue disputed, which was the case in this report.


[email protected] <--- the Judge's email, please feel free to lob your anger in this direction

gacked from Fat Lady's blog

The Viscount

Our culture has a very odd perspective on sex. On the one hand, our advertisements, sitcoms, music videos, movies and magazines are saturated with artificial and unhealthy sexual content and imagery, often mixed with violence. On the other hand we have this puritanical pretext of chastity, with the loud voices from the right side of the political spectrum preaching abstinence, outraged at Janet Jackson's nipple-clamp adorned 40 year-old teat being flashed for a second on national television. We promote sex in the media as cheap thrill but officially discuss it as if it were a dark and evil little secret of which all of us should be ashamed.

What we have today is the result of a culture that celebrates violence and guns, and depicts sex as dirty, but at the same time saturates our lives with the cheapest most superficial form of sexuality - sexuality as a tool to sell anything from cars to beer to candy...



Every time I come back to your site I get more and more impressed with the incredibly elegant way you discuss hot button issues with cool reasoning. Never missing a beat and always succinct and to the point, your diplomacy is really commendable. Just the way you politely got your point across to Jazz, never missing a beat, whilst elegantly adding to your main text so as not to be biased in any way, is really a credit to you and your blog.

Finally putting you on my Blogroll, I don't quite know what took me so long...if there is a voice to be heard, it's yours.

On the main issue, I am remain with you - SIMPLY DISGUSTED.

J Pierpont Flathead

The news article has an appalling lack of evidence one way or the other.

The trial took a day and a half. (Who knows how much actual time that was, 20 minutes? 6 hours? 9 hours?)

Apart from the newspaper article, and the statement about woman's reaction, do you have any evidence yourself that the prosecutors and judge did not rely on other evidence that the woman's statements were false? Do you have evidence that it really was just a three to one, they said, she said?

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