REDEMPTION SONG

CAN A MAN ever redeem himself for a life of murder and other crimes? Does the punishment of death belong rightly with god or with man? Tookie Williams will die by lethal injection administered by the State of California?  Williams founded the gang known as the Crips.  Are we morally crippled if society exacts vengeance by putting him to death?  Williams has changed his life and been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts?  Is anything lost by his death?  Share your opinion, have a drink, leave a link.  Franz K is pouring at the bar tonight. 

TUESDAY MORNING UPDATE Gone, unforgotten by some, unforgiven by others. Who knows best? Who is the better for Tookie Williams' death?  We will all be dead soon enough.

Comments

[blogenfreude]

Now we know The Terminator wasn't just a movie ... [sigh].

[Franz K]

A little lighter. Flavor of the Month

[Terrance]

Looking for a little redemption myself. I'm opposed to the death penalty across the board, but I haven't blogged about the Tookie Williams case because capitol punishment is right up there with torture as one of those subjects I've gotten tired of talking about. Why? Beacuse it's starting to feel pushing a rock up a hill; an exhausting and pointless exercise because torture and death is what most Americans want, based on the votes they cast.

Call it outrage fatigue, but sometimes it seems pointless to fight it. Ya know?

[blogenfreude]

A helluva lot lighter ... commit treason in 5 words or less and win fabulous prizes!

[PoliShifter]

Redemption Song
Words by Bob Marley

Old pirates yes they rob I
Sold I to the merchant ships
Minutes after they took I from the
Bottom less pit

But my hand was made strong
By the hand of the almighty
We forward in this generation triumphantly

All I ever had is songs of freedom
Won't you help to sing these songs of freedom
Cause all I ever had redemption songs, redemption songs

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery
None but ourselves can free our minds

Have no fear for atomic energy
Cause none of them can stop the time

How long shall they kill our prophets
While we stand aside and look
Some say it's just a part of it
We've got to fulfill the book

Won't you help to sing, these songs of freedom
Cause all I ever had, redemption songs, redemption songs, redemption songs

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery
None but ourselves can free our minds

Have no fear for atomic energy
Cause none of them can stop the time

How long shall they kill our prophets
While we stand aside and look

Yes some say it's just part of it
We've got to fulfill the book

Won't you help to sing, these songs of freedom
Cause all I ever had, redemption songs

All I ever had, redemption songs
These songs of freedom, songs of freedom

[PoliShifter]

Why is that those who claim to be Christian;
Those that brag about how they attend church every week;
Those that wrap themselves in the Bible;
Those that claim the moral authority;

Why is that these people are the first to want to kill someone? Isn't Christianity all about faith, redemption, forgiveness, and love?

Why is it these self-proclaimed self righteous people are the first to want to go to war, first to justify torture, first to judge, and first to condemn?

[dorsano]

I believe that when an individual kills in self defense or kills to save another from imminent death, killing is justified.

I believe that the same justification can be extended to the state.

When the rule of law is threatened such as in the killing of cop - or when a break down in civil order is threatened by acts of terrorism - or when the state's ability to defend itself is threatened by treason, - executions are acts of self defense by the state.

I believe that the same justification can be extended to the world court. Genocide threatens the fabric of civilization and in those cases, executions are acts of self defense.

In all other cases, I think the state should leave with God any need to exact a life for a life.

The death penalty is about as good at deterring crime as torture is at obtaining the truth.

While the Williams' case may proven beyond doubt - many aren't and I tend to value the life of innocent person above any compelling need to punish.

[watertiger]

This is why the death penalty should be abolished: because the people who make the decisions are usually too fucking cowardly to make the right choice. Instead, they protect their own interests and their own political careers.

I am thoroughly disgusted.

[blogenfreude]

Watertiger, we've got Pataki for a bit longer too ... what's up with THAT?

[Franz K]

Dive, captain. Dive.

[Terrance]

While the Williams' case may proven beyond doubt - many aren't and I tend to value the life of innocent person above any compelling need to punish.

And now, of course, there's evidence that one state has executed an innocent person, one who was charged and convicted as an adolescent. It bubbled up in the media for a while, and the story went way. And how many people honestly cared? Chances are, not that many.

The state kills an innocent person and, as it does every time another torture related story surfaces in Iraq, most America just yawns and turns the page. Most of us couldn't care less.

[KathyFisnotAForeignTart]

At last, a real drink instead of tea, as I join you from this side of the hemisphere. A California Cabernet, please.

I am in serious need of stress relief. Can I sign up for a yoga class while I'm here? When does this Lefty's lounge I've been hearing about open?

[The Heretik]

It is open as we speak. And a nice Alexander Valley Cab might work. Wolcott on Arnold and Tookie I don't think the Kennedy in her is rubbing off on him.

[NeddieJingo]

Too, too many people confuse Justice and Revenge. When I hear the word "Closure" I instinctively recoil; the smell of burnt flesh too soon will rend the air.

Worth investigation: Jeremy Bentham and the Panopticon. Bentham might have been the first person to separate Justice from Revenge in any meaningful way. Repelled by the practice of transportation of England's criminals first to America (where they formed the backbone of what we call today Rednecks) and then to Australia, Bentham hit upon the idea of the rehabilitation of criminals. The reaction against this notion has its most recent expression in the execution of Tookie Williams who could not possibly be a better example of what Bentham was talking about. It creeps me out no little bit to realize Williams is being prepped for lethal injection as I type these words.

[KathyF]

NeddieJ, that's the thing about the death penalty that gets to me too. We take a healthy human and collectively end his or her life. I had no feelings one way or the other about the death penalty until I saw the hearse drive up outside the Florida prison where John Spinkalink was shortly to be put to death. That was the gut reaction that defined my position on this.

Thanks for the Cab. I have a nice buzz now, to match the glowing lights of the War on Christmas.

[media girl]

Yeah, ice the mofo, because life for ordinary people in gangbanger neighborhoods will be so much better tomorrow.

The biggest mistake the Crips made is not buying into K Street.

[The Heretik]

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery
None but ourselves can free our minds

Rehabilitation may better serve society than execution, per Bentham's utitlitarian concept. "One ought act so that the consequences of one's act will produce the greatest possible total welfare across all members of the population."

[blogenfreude]

Panopticon ... Foucault excellent on this: Discipline and Punish.

[libby]

So much death this week. With all the ways to die, do we need really need to find more reasons to kill people. One of your delicious margaritas if you will please Franz. I'll take the corner table and imagine the unimaginable. Best read of the day Heretik.

[The Heretik]

Thanks, Libby. This one could be read as slapstick comedy. Or something. Oy. Digby has mas

[libby]

Yeah. W is only interested in the news because he wants to make sure his stenos and other paid pundits are getting it right. I still can't fathom who in their right mind would have voted these people in twice.

I'm convinced they stole it the second time with the Diebolds. Speaking of which what do you make of this? Am I the only one that thinks O'Dell might be about to get caught?

[Craig McDonough]

I used to think there was at least one thing in favor of capital punishment -- it cut down on repeat offenders.

But then I realized it did the name for the person didn't actually do the crime, as well.

[DuWayne]

I am not a beleiver in the death penalty because the risk of executing an innocent person far outweighs the benifit to society. It also seems that it has no value as a deterent to others so it really only can have value as vengence. While some might argue that it can have theraputic value to families of victims it really can be detrimental to thoughs effected. . .Just not worth the risk of killing innocents and destroying a part of ourselves in the process. I do however think that changing the imposed sentence based on his "good" works since is a crock. First he has tried to claim he didn't "do" the murders - he bloody well did. Second if he id truly remorsfull he should accept his punishment and try to use it as a deterent - show kids who are living that life where it can take you. Trying to weasel out in the manner he has is just wrong. Trying to justify it as a please don't kill me, I did the crimes but this is who I am now - use me for good, I could respect but this is just BS.

[CE Petro]

I always seem to miss drinks -- too tired at the end of the day to come out and play.
The whole death penalty thing has bothered me for some time, especially the excuses used in favor of capital punishment. The excuses are the epitome of mans inhumanity to man.
Some of the letters Jack Cafferty, CNN, was reading late yesterday afternoon,were unbelievable to me. The gist of a couple were it doesn't matter if you redeem yourself, it only matters that you killed someone (or specifically that a jury convicted you), so you should die.
I can't help but wonder if people who think like that are actually part of the human species.